Snack #1

[Ms. C]

Here is the first (of, hopefully, many) thoughts shared by one of your peers. Be sure to reply with some of your thoughts on the discussion Janelle generated! Do this before class on Friday!

In the class discussion yesterday it was brought up that women seem to be blamed for most things that go wrong, yet the women were the only ones who had peaceful religious related deaths. What is Shakespeare trying to say about women?
I was thinking that maybe it is that women aren't treated with the respect they deserve.
Or is he just saying that women are treated badly but are the most pure hearted?

Why was hamlets mother given a peaceful death when she remarried so quickly after her husbands death? In religious views don't they disapprove of sleeping with more than one person? And it was insinuated in the book that the mother and uncle have been in bed together.

[john petree]

respect? respect is earned, and hamlets mom is a harlet, she betrayed hamlets dad, and her death was by poison in her wine, which is considered the blood of jesus, thus a sign of betrayal to her religion by sleeping with another man.
i always concidered shakespeare to be a pervert, so to answer your question, shakespeare might be implying that women are harlots, with the exception of ophelia.

[carinafelix]

WOMEN ARE AWESOME & Shakes knows it.
I think he KNOWS that women are superior and are purely goodnatured.
I mean, it wasn't Gertrude who was after Claudius. He seduced her! What was she to do... she was lonely and a widow. Beautiful women always feel the need to be loved and adored.

And Ophelia wasn't born crazy, AGAIN a man caused her to become crazy and kill herself (her father).

I think we need to remember that the women did not commit any murders or partake in the planning of any murders, unlike the men in the play who were all plotting each other's deaths.
I don't think what Gertrude did was so bad. That was acceptable back then.. sorta. Had it not been, she would have been hated.

Therefore I conclude with the fact that women are AMAZING! Shakespeare wanted the audience to know that the women were going to Heaven, that's why he added the whole purification thing.
WOMEN POWER!!!

Carina

[berenicecontreras]

I think the purpose of a beautiful death for women is to end a life peacefully since women are the most precious in life. Woman are the reason for peace and have been the biggest advocates of religion.


Although this is a generalization, most of Shakespeare's work revolves around it.

Women display religious values and serenity more often then males. The respect is paid towards women, even those who don't deserve it to show that all women deserve respect to have a proper burial as men are more masculine and do not seem to put that into though.

[zacko]

Ok, so Shakespeare here was a gentleman a total gentleman who wasn't so high class but, backed up by his plays and sonnets, believed in love. Shakes' believes that woman are treated bad in society, which is why he includes the bad rap they get in his play. I believe Shakespeare was one of the few gentleman who believed that wonderful ladies are not just harlots which is why he gives the woman a subtle, formal, almost classy death that represents beauty and peace; then gives Hamlet and the rest of the feuding, ignorant, beast like men such a dishonorable, messy death which represents the truth. Meaning that the deaths of the different sex's represent their true status and what they truly deserve.

[zacko]

Hold up Carina, first off it's women hood, Mrs. Lombardi would be totally pissed at you right now.

Anyways I agree with you somewhat, the women didn't contemplate or commit any type of murder, and the men behaved like beasts, but Gertrude did move on fast and slept with the man in the period of six weeks since the death of her husband. Honestly if my wife moved on that fast and i witnessed it from the skies of heaven I would be furious and betrayed. What she did was weak, she was dependent on the brother of her dead husband to make it all better when she could have been strong and stuck it out until she was capable of making a rational decision. Same should go for a man double standards should not apply to anything. My point being that she did have a choice, everyone has a choice and she chose an unethical one that was disappointing, Claudius is just lame.

[mayrapuente]

I think Shakes gave the characters their corresponding deaths. For example, the men in the play were murdered brutally, and the women died peacefully. Sure, the queen did wrong by marrying Claudius, her ex husband's brother, INCEST, but, she did not go around wanting to stab people and she was not consumed by power as some of the men. Likewise, Ophelia did not attempt to kill Hamlet for assassinating her father, she merely killed herself. The women sinned, but if you think about it, the men sinned far worse. The women, therefore, are almost angelic if they were to be compared to the men, which is why I believe Shakes gave the women religious related deaths because of their somewhat innocence and purity.

[mayrapuente]

Carina, your comment is so like you! I can just imagine you stating it lol

I completely agree with everything you said. Shakes wrote his play with women receiving religious related deaths for a reason, so I agree, Shakes knew women were awesome! ;D

[crystalruiz23]

Now we all know that in Hamlet, the women are given a peaceful way of death. Shakespeare killed them off this way because he new woman in that time had been valuable and seen to be a main source for men. Men would have nothing if they did not have a lady at their side. If we look at it in a religious way, God created man first but he then created the woman because it was the missing piece of the mans perfect life. Meaning, Shakes knew that by making the woman valuable in the play, it would bring some peace between the men.
Yet in the play, Hamlet's mother had betrayed Hamlet by marrying his fathers uncle in such little time and we see that in this case, woman need men in their live in order to feel that they are supported by someone. As well as Ophelia. She killed herself because she couldn't handle the loss of her father. We are shown that both ladies can't live without a man in their life who will support them. So in this case, it is seen the other way around.
In this play, Shakespeare wanted to give them both a peaceful death because no matter what, they are of importance to man and they are seen to have a religious value. So in my opinion, it is seen 50/50 because they both need each other. No matter what, woman are still the most pure hearted!

[crystalruiz23]

*its fathers brother not uncle. sorry

I like your response Zack. "Meaning that the deaths of the different sex's represent their true status and what they truly deserve." I didn't really think of that. But I can agree that men do have a more monstrous death then woman because of their way of being. Woman are more fragile and for that, we give them a peaceful death. Ha

[jmahurien]

In reply to the original idea:
How in any way was dying by poison a peaceful death? Sure it was quick and clean, but that doesn't necessarily mean peaceful. Maybe if she died in her sleep, or of old age, or any other peaceful way. You got to remember, Laertes, and the King, wanted HAMLET to ingest that poison. And the anger that Laertes had for Hamlet, I'm sure he didn't want the death to be painless. In my opinion, he most likely chose a poison that would destroy his body... painfully. And as for Ophelia, when did drowning become a death of peace? Have you ever fell in a pool of water and felt like you were drowning? That could be one of the scariest moments in your life. And both of these deaths, seem like deaths that could have been prevented or fixed quickly. If Ophelia was stronger, or was more able to swim, I think that she would have gotten out of the water, or if the Queen knew of her ingestion of poison, she could have induced vomitting to bring the poison up or quickly ingest a remedy. I think that Shakespeare is trying to say something in this about women. I think that Shakespeare might be implying that women are inferior in this context. As for the men however, they all die in violent attacks. Ultimately they all wanted each other dead, and as the bible verse states "Those who live by the sword die by the sword." I believe that Shakespeare was implying this idea in his play. The men that acted against each other in violence literally with swords... literally died by swords.

[Janelle Castillo]

I think that Shakespeare's is trying to tell his audience something about woman's role in society. Possibly that they aren't treated as well as the deserve, or that women are wrongly blamed for things going when when they are most pure. The women in the play aren't as vicious as the men. I don't think hamlets mother deserved the death she got, she should have either gotten a more violent death or the death of drowning because then then shakes would have been saying that all sins are forgiven after death.

[Juan Jaimez]

I honestly believe that Shakespeare was portraying women, as John stated, as "harlots" and they were to blame for everything. Peaceful death? Joshua clearly states how "peaceful" drowning in a rushing river with water seeping into your lungs and suffocating the life out of you or how "peaceful" it is to die a slow, painful death with the poison in the wine, slowly destroying and obliterating all of ones internal organs and causing excruciating agony. You call that "peaceful?" As Hamlet would say, "Pah!"

If it were not for Gertrude marrying so quickly to HER DEAD HUSBAND'S BROTHER OF ALL PEOPLE, this play would not exist! Hamlet would have been king and probably married Ophelia. However, since she DID marry and was having sex with her dead husband's BROTHER, the church would have definitely stigmatized her as a whore and would receive the burial of a commoner. Gertrude's defiance of the church would ultimately come back and bite her on the ass (or cause her timely death) in the form of the poisoned wine. Wine, the blood of Jesus Christ and one of the most central and sacred symbols in the church, was used AGAINST Gertrude and ultimately killed her, a sinner and a trouble maker. That's what she was.

Ophelia, on the other hand, committed suicide, an act that SURELY damns one's soul to Hell for all eternity. She did not die an honorable death, she killed herself, the lowest and most sinful way to die. She did not deserve her burial and everyone knew it. The gravediggers said that the only reason that she was receiving that burial was because she was of money and importance. Her family was demanding a proper burial but she was not worthy of one because she killed herself. Shakespeare here shows the unfairness between the social classes. Ophelia did not deserve the burial, but because she was of a higher social rank, her family was able to steal one away. Had it been some one of a lower social rank, they would not have a proper burial.

[john]

juan, really? you do realize you are in high school right? you need to be a little more sensitive to who may read that and take great offense. someone killing themselves means they are in great pain, so by saying they should be damned to hell is a bit ofensive. amanda todd for example, it was OTHERS, her own classmates who made her her feel like she didnt have a choice. they told her, like mrs. chacons comment, "get it over with"

[Juan Jaimez]

@john

My apologies, I forgot to put that that was the views of the church. I, personally, do not share the same views as the church whatsoever and sincerely apologize myself if I offended you, my peers, or anyone that read my passage. Once again, the suicide perspective is based on the views of the church, not my personal views at all.